This interview took place Friday, with Mark Stahlman of the Center for the Study of Digital Life. It's way too much fun not to send out now. We address the soul-level struggle that digital leads to.
Mark and I both gloss over an important point in the transition from print to radio dominance. Mark says that the influence of print is about making individual decisions; hence, of private individuality. Radio invades that space, and takes people out of a state of mind where they feel that they can make meaningful personal choices. It invades the sense that one can decide for oneself. Mark has said before that in a radio environment, people feel good being told what to do. Like all electrical media, radio creates a TRIBALIZING EFFECT. As McLuhan has said, people don't like to admit that radio leads to Gandhi, Hitler and FDR all at once. All are products of the tribal, exterior consciousness of the radio era in the early 20th century through the 1940s. Notably, Hitler is the first to adapt to television, with the first televised Olympic games being those in 1936 (though few people had TV sets to see this).
Eric Francis: This discussion is brilliant, riveting, fabulous. I enjoyed it tremendously! I'll probably watch / listen to it again soon.
I need to comment on one specific thing you said near the end of the discussion: "No one wants to read my astrologically-informed coverage of the covid era." (Though I think you might have amended that, under your breath, to "or almost no one," to be fair to you.)
I DO! I read Part One of that riveting work a few days ago, when you posted a link to it, and I very much wanted to read Part Two, but I couldn't find the link to it. I wrote a comment to you, asking where to find the link, but didn't receive a reply. That's not your fault though. I asked about it on the comments thread of an article you wrote a few months ago, (I think it was in November 2022) expecting that you'd receive an email notification about that new comment and reply to it in that thread. In any case, I'd still love to read the second half of your brilliant, astrologically-informed covid history.
I'm 67, and I feel as strongly as it's possible to feel that digital conditions are toxic and damaging in the extreme to everyone who engages with them. I wish I could enjoy your work without having to engage with digital media! I refuse to have a smartphone, and I never watch television: there were only about four years in my entire life when I did, as a matter of fact, and even then it was to a very limited extent. (Like Mark Stahlman, I grew up without television.) I can barely tolerate listening to radio at all, and I only use the telephone when absolutely necessary. I read books, old-style, ink on paper.
Thank you both for the thought provoking discussion. I remember Jerry Mander´s book on TV. He also wrote a very perceptive book called In The Absence of the Sacred. I was born in 1955. I remember one Saturday morning in 1965, having a realization that TV was just a waste of time. My sisters were watching cartoons; stupid stories, bad art, sort of hynotized. I hopped onto my bike and headed out into a gorgeous summer day. (The silicon valley was indeed the valley of the hearts delight in those days). I still think excluding TV is at least partially why I can think. I also wonder if TV culture has taught people to believe liars, that willful suspension of disbelief having gotten out of hand, and less willful. Saludos from the mountains of Jalisco!
I feel i need to make some comments. There were some fabulous things Stahlman (“the man of steel”) said. And there were some things i have SERIOUS problems with.
Excellent point on his part about how in our society and system of government, “freedom” is defined in terms of “freedom from,” rather than “freedom to,” particularly freedom to participate in running the society, making its decisions, the way it was for male citizens in the city-state of Athens in its classical period. And i heartily agree with his expression of the need to restore balance between the interior senses and the exterior ones, to reestablish connections with our humanity and spiritual being.
The disagreements were the strongest in three particular areas.
1. He asserted that “Bilderberg is a joke,” people don’t believe the media, and are moving towards increased focus on the immediately local. But Bilderberg is not at all a joke. Via the CFR, Bilderberg, the Trilateral Commission, the global elites are figuring out the way to impose the new systems of domination, In fact, Stahlman seems to completely lack any sense of the power dynamics in this society, that the disparities in wealth and power are getting far more extreme, have gotten so over the last three years. Sorry, but the public still largely believes the contagion/virus mythology, and there is absolutely no sign that a new Operation “Pandemic” or its equivalent in another sphere of life besides the health care cannot be pushed. He gave no examples of groups which are setting up alternatives to the increasingly global power structure.
2. He saw RFK Jr’s 20% poll rating as a good sign. He did clarify that he meant that it’s an indication of public dissatisfaction with the “Pandemic” narrative as pushed by Fauci. But you correctly pointed out that Bobby is still pushing the core of that narrative, differing only in countermeasures proposed. Yes, every word he says is a lie, as Stahlman admits, but even worse is what he doesn’t say, at least not so widely, namely that he is fronting for interests within the ruling apparatus which wish to push this society into a Blockchain digital global jail, all of us tethered to our digital ledgers, constantly minded for our data, including the innermost aspects of our biological systems. functioning as investment instruments for impact investment, pay-for-success finance, smart contracts, our lives to be run by our digital twins, whose behavior is channeled via digital tokens. Bobby is actually the candidate pushing the 4IR/Metaverse the hardest. And THAT is where AI is taking us. His candidacy is this election cycle’s version of a counterinsurgency operation which the Demo Party often acts to push. The fact that it’s getting 20% support a mere six weeks after being launched is not at all a good sign.
3. Stahlman doesn’t wanna “do away with technology,” thinks AI is A-OK as long as we can train it well. NO WAY! AI is irredeemable. It is a tool of control, particularly given the (once again) power realities in this society. First of all, hii tech in general cannot last, it’s an illusion that “we can work it out.” The energy sources aren’t there, the raw materials aren’t there, to extend it much further, it’s a losing proposition to keep going with it. But on top of that, what possible potential good can AI bring? One of its prime developers, Eliezer Yudkowsky, recently in an article in Time called for stopping it, saying AI will with 100% certainty result in the destruction of humanity. though he was willing to make an exception for “bio technology which we need to fight pandemics.” OY! AI is the tool which makes the Great Reset/4IR/Metaverse possible. This group of people called What’s Left was quite direct about AI, they nailed the problem well. The Yudkowsky piece is discussed, the article linked.
AI: Shut It Down! What’s Left, 4/29/23. An hour and 15 minutes.
"Today we discuss the growing attention on Artificial Intelligence (AI). We have mentioned its development as it relates to the Fourth Industrial Revolution. But today we dedicate, one of many to come, an episode solely on it and its threat. ChatGPT, self-Driving cars, lethal robots, artistic robots, DeepMind, Bard, etc... the world as we know it is in jeopardy. Our very human existence is at stake. Check us out." [Links]
Thank you both for this thought provoking discussion. I remember reading Mander's book on tv. He also wrote one called In the Absence of the Sacred that I thought was spot on. I was born in 1955 and grew up in the silicon valley. I remember the day in 1965 when I realized that tv was a creepy waste of time. I think it has destroyed many peoples ability to think, as well as having taught them to believe liars. Cheers from the mountains of Jalisco.
i'm sure some folks may have come across this, but here is Douglas Englebart giving a demonstration in 1968, pasting from description: "The live demonstration featured the introduction of the computer mouse, video conferencing, teleconferencing, hypertext, word processing, hypermedia, object addressing and dynamic file linking, bootstrapping, and a collaborative real-time editor."
very interwoven with issues around AI, as another commenter mentioned, Eliezer Yudkowsky, who has been talking about the values based "alignment" problem for several yrs at this point (see "the foom debate": https://intelligence.org/files/AIFoomDebate.pdf)
I really enjoyed the conversation. Beatlemania; between imagination and memory; cognitive psychology destroying soul; Freedom to soul-actualization... so many fascinating topics, some challenging, and I will dig in to Mark's website for more.
Toward the end of the video, there were a few things I want to comment on that raised hairs or seemed otherwise significant. They are:
1. Mark's belief that globalism is being abandoned and most are turning attention to local details as a result of Covid... I see the opposite. I and many others worldwide have been saddled with trauma that continues to threaten the stability of family and sense of place, due to the Convid. While meaningful relationships emerged from that abyss, they are more fragmented or disconnected from locality. More tentative toward society while more candid in an intimate setting. Meanwhile, with the use of digital communications, we are being corralled, tagged, and drugged as farm animals. In addition, most can no longer clothe themselves, procure their own food, even drive their car, or talk to mother without the assistance of the internet - increasingly on a privilege only basis. Like Walmart killed downtown, internet is killing physical locality. It is the Nothing.
2. Logograms being superior to the phonetic alphabet... I don't see that, other than the observation that it is efficient to have a single character communicate a word or concept. However, as well documented in The Underground History of American Education by John Taylor Gatto, the introduction of whole-word reading method, by way of Prussian Schooling, decimated the literacy of Americans over the course of the last century. Gatto also notes that illiteracy breeds violence and servility. In fact, the tendency toward servility, Gatto points out, was the driving purpose for Prussian schooling and the systematic destruction of American literacy, which had been previously established with phonics with each child needing only a couple years of schooling to grasp communication and a tremendous vocabulary and sense of grammar. Interesting and enjoyable read, if you get the chance.
3. Digital leading to spiritual... To me, digital is the end of nuance. The end of value. The end of natural environmental sensibility. The wrong road. An all encompassing, artificial, controlled environment. (HA I used that phrase here, then heard you use it 2 minutes later, Eric) I don't feel compelled to further travel that road and believe it is antithetical to the human spiritual experience. Not to mention, really unnecessary - except to "fit in" in one way or another. (don't get me wrong, I like Photoshop, but I could do without)
4. Convid Narrative "A" gives way to Convid Narrative "B"... You nail it. Controlled. Also, both are of digital origin, right? "A" by way of metagenomics and "B" creating a group of followers brought together via Internet TV! 2020 was the big plunge into digital. I have had the hardest time communicating with those that are in the box "B" people.
5. I can't join Mark Stahlman on the glimmer of hope with figuring out AI. Call me a Luddite. Give me a sledgehammer. How can we hear the ever present whisper of spirit with the noise of trillions of artificial thoughts being blasted throughout our surroundings - even from our friends' mouths? How are we to connect to our common Source when it is being superimposed by Googleplex? What is truth, AI?
6. I could change my tune with new experiences, but these are my thoughts at present. Shut down these machines, or they will shut us down (again). Look away and make a game plan.
The KSM 32 Shure is a fantastic microphone but my voice really works perfectly on the RE 20. And notably not the RE 27. The shure sounded way too thin and ready. This is almost like a hamburger. It has a fat sound. And it’s also a very easy Mike to work with particularly in my style which is like close to the Mike style speaking while I’m doing radio. Not so much for video.
mate, absolutely fab conversation with a "wired" human being. I'm smiling wide..!!!
i've just finished reading Krisnamurti and am now reading Sun Tzu - The Art of War translation.
Both are leaving me jiggling with excitment as to the completeness of "our world" as that which, resides between our ears. That is, our perception of what we are, in relation to where we are as a mental creature and the consequences of the actions that follow. Our heads are where it's at.
We are truely in amazing times. To quote David Adelman (The People's Lawer here in the UK) CV19 is a gift that keeps on giving....!!!! Long may this continue. The agenda is failing because the entire thing is based on lies without substance. It's only because people believe that any of this stuff sticks to the wall. Inter-generational death cults are dead in themselves.
Flow like water man. And do not ever put your efforts over the past 3 years down. They are Gold. OK.
O, I think i've got a new business plan that may take off...as quoted, yes there are so many cameras here in London, I am proposing to start a Camera Removal Service whereby one takes down any survillence equipment and delivers it all back to the Councils. No destruction, just return. Not sure how they'll take it but, it could be entertaining for a while?
Anyhow, give the Mermaid a kiss...i'm certain she'll love your blue and pink combo headband.
Mark and I both gloss over an important point in the transition from print to radio dominance. Mark says that the influence of print is about making individual decisions; hence, of private individuality. Radio invades that space, and takes people out of a state of mind where they feel that they can make meaningful personal choices. It invades the sense that one can decide for oneself. Mark has said before that in a radio environment, people feel good being told what to do. Like all electrical media, radio creates a TRIBALIZING EFFECT. As McLuhan has said, people don't like to admit that radio leads to Gandhi, Hitler and FDR all at once. All are products of the tribal, exterior consciousness of the radio era in the early 20th century through the 1940s. Notably, Hitler is the first to adapt to television, with the first televised Olympic games being those in 1936 (though few people had TV sets to see this).
Eric Francis: This discussion is brilliant, riveting, fabulous. I enjoyed it tremendously! I'll probably watch / listen to it again soon.
I need to comment on one specific thing you said near the end of the discussion: "No one wants to read my astrologically-informed coverage of the covid era." (Though I think you might have amended that, under your breath, to "or almost no one," to be fair to you.)
I DO! I read Part One of that riveting work a few days ago, when you posted a link to it, and I very much wanted to read Part Two, but I couldn't find the link to it. I wrote a comment to you, asking where to find the link, but didn't receive a reply. That's not your fault though. I asked about it on the comments thread of an article you wrote a few months ago, (I think it was in November 2022) expecting that you'd receive an email notification about that new comment and reply to it in that thread. In any case, I'd still love to read the second half of your brilliant, astrologically-informed covid history.
I'm 67, and I feel as strongly as it's possible to feel that digital conditions are toxic and damaging in the extreme to everyone who engages with them. I wish I could enjoy your work without having to engage with digital media! I refuse to have a smartphone, and I never watch television: there were only about four years in my entire life when I did, as a matter of fact, and even then it was to a very limited extent. (Like Mark Stahlman, I grew up without television.) I can barely tolerate listening to radio at all, and I only use the telephone when absolutely necessary. I read books, old-style, ink on paper.
Thank you both for the thought provoking discussion. I remember Jerry Mander´s book on TV. He also wrote a very perceptive book called In The Absence of the Sacred. I was born in 1955. I remember one Saturday morning in 1965, having a realization that TV was just a waste of time. My sisters were watching cartoons; stupid stories, bad art, sort of hynotized. I hopped onto my bike and headed out into a gorgeous summer day. (The silicon valley was indeed the valley of the hearts delight in those days). I still think excluding TV is at least partially why I can think. I also wonder if TV culture has taught people to believe liars, that willful suspension of disbelief having gotten out of hand, and less willful. Saludos from the mountains of Jalisco!
I feel i need to make some comments. There were some fabulous things Stahlman (“the man of steel”) said. And there were some things i have SERIOUS problems with.
Excellent point on his part about how in our society and system of government, “freedom” is defined in terms of “freedom from,” rather than “freedom to,” particularly freedom to participate in running the society, making its decisions, the way it was for male citizens in the city-state of Athens in its classical period. And i heartily agree with his expression of the need to restore balance between the interior senses and the exterior ones, to reestablish connections with our humanity and spiritual being.
The disagreements were the strongest in three particular areas.
1. He asserted that “Bilderberg is a joke,” people don’t believe the media, and are moving towards increased focus on the immediately local. But Bilderberg is not at all a joke. Via the CFR, Bilderberg, the Trilateral Commission, the global elites are figuring out the way to impose the new systems of domination, In fact, Stahlman seems to completely lack any sense of the power dynamics in this society, that the disparities in wealth and power are getting far more extreme, have gotten so over the last three years. Sorry, but the public still largely believes the contagion/virus mythology, and there is absolutely no sign that a new Operation “Pandemic” or its equivalent in another sphere of life besides the health care cannot be pushed. He gave no examples of groups which are setting up alternatives to the increasingly global power structure.
2. He saw RFK Jr’s 20% poll rating as a good sign. He did clarify that he meant that it’s an indication of public dissatisfaction with the “Pandemic” narrative as pushed by Fauci. But you correctly pointed out that Bobby is still pushing the core of that narrative, differing only in countermeasures proposed. Yes, every word he says is a lie, as Stahlman admits, but even worse is what he doesn’t say, at least not so widely, namely that he is fronting for interests within the ruling apparatus which wish to push this society into a Blockchain digital global jail, all of us tethered to our digital ledgers, constantly minded for our data, including the innermost aspects of our biological systems. functioning as investment instruments for impact investment, pay-for-success finance, smart contracts, our lives to be run by our digital twins, whose behavior is channeled via digital tokens. Bobby is actually the candidate pushing the 4IR/Metaverse the hardest. And THAT is where AI is taking us. His candidacy is this election cycle’s version of a counterinsurgency operation which the Demo Party often acts to push. The fact that it’s getting 20% support a mere six weeks after being launched is not at all a good sign.
3. Stahlman doesn’t wanna “do away with technology,” thinks AI is A-OK as long as we can train it well. NO WAY! AI is irredeemable. It is a tool of control, particularly given the (once again) power realities in this society. First of all, hii tech in general cannot last, it’s an illusion that “we can work it out.” The energy sources aren’t there, the raw materials aren’t there, to extend it much further, it’s a losing proposition to keep going with it. But on top of that, what possible potential good can AI bring? One of its prime developers, Eliezer Yudkowsky, recently in an article in Time called for stopping it, saying AI will with 100% certainty result in the destruction of humanity. though he was willing to make an exception for “bio technology which we need to fight pandemics.” OY! AI is the tool which makes the Great Reset/4IR/Metaverse possible. This group of people called What’s Left was quite direct about AI, they nailed the problem well. The Yudkowsky piece is discussed, the article linked.
https://www.bitchute.com/video/L1ofjQs5TnBx/?fbclid=IwAR2o06T_uK1nbcvBEexxPV7e0wRR43llcYO0m79OeD0Ik2HYEFdu-_nYlv4
AI: Shut It Down! What’s Left, 4/29/23. An hour and 15 minutes.
"Today we discuss the growing attention on Artificial Intelligence (AI). We have mentioned its development as it relates to the Fourth Industrial Revolution. But today we dedicate, one of many to come, an episode solely on it and its threat. ChatGPT, self-Driving cars, lethal robots, artistic robots, DeepMind, Bard, etc... the world as we know it is in jeopardy. Our very human existence is at stake. Check us out." [Links]
Thank you both for this thought provoking discussion. I remember reading Mander's book on tv. He also wrote one called In the Absence of the Sacred that I thought was spot on. I was born in 1955 and grew up in the silicon valley. I remember the day in 1965 when I realized that tv was a creepy waste of time. I think it has destroyed many peoples ability to think, as well as having taught them to believe liars. Cheers from the mountains of Jalisco.
i'm sure some folks may have come across this, but here is Douglas Englebart giving a demonstration in 1968, pasting from description: "The live demonstration featured the introduction of the computer mouse, video conferencing, teleconferencing, hypertext, word processing, hypermedia, object addressing and dynamic file linking, bootstrapping, and a collaborative real-time editor."
link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJDv-zdhzMY
additionally, given the discussion around memory, article from 65 written by Gordon Moore that i think contextualizes "moore's law" a bit further for anyone interested: https://web.archive.org/web/20190327213847/https://newsroom.intel.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/11/2018/05/moores-law-electronics.pdf
very interwoven with issues around AI, as another commenter mentioned, Eliezer Yudkowsky, who has been talking about the values based "alignment" problem for several yrs at this point (see "the foom debate": https://intelligence.org/files/AIFoomDebate.pdf)
Awesome conversation. Very unique and HUMAN
I really enjoyed the conversation. Beatlemania; between imagination and memory; cognitive psychology destroying soul; Freedom to soul-actualization... so many fascinating topics, some challenging, and I will dig in to Mark's website for more.
Toward the end of the video, there were a few things I want to comment on that raised hairs or seemed otherwise significant. They are:
1. Mark's belief that globalism is being abandoned and most are turning attention to local details as a result of Covid... I see the opposite. I and many others worldwide have been saddled with trauma that continues to threaten the stability of family and sense of place, due to the Convid. While meaningful relationships emerged from that abyss, they are more fragmented or disconnected from locality. More tentative toward society while more candid in an intimate setting. Meanwhile, with the use of digital communications, we are being corralled, tagged, and drugged as farm animals. In addition, most can no longer clothe themselves, procure their own food, even drive their car, or talk to mother without the assistance of the internet - increasingly on a privilege only basis. Like Walmart killed downtown, internet is killing physical locality. It is the Nothing.
2. Logograms being superior to the phonetic alphabet... I don't see that, other than the observation that it is efficient to have a single character communicate a word or concept. However, as well documented in The Underground History of American Education by John Taylor Gatto, the introduction of whole-word reading method, by way of Prussian Schooling, decimated the literacy of Americans over the course of the last century. Gatto also notes that illiteracy breeds violence and servility. In fact, the tendency toward servility, Gatto points out, was the driving purpose for Prussian schooling and the systematic destruction of American literacy, which had been previously established with phonics with each child needing only a couple years of schooling to grasp communication and a tremendous vocabulary and sense of grammar. Interesting and enjoyable read, if you get the chance.
3. Digital leading to spiritual... To me, digital is the end of nuance. The end of value. The end of natural environmental sensibility. The wrong road. An all encompassing, artificial, controlled environment. (HA I used that phrase here, then heard you use it 2 minutes later, Eric) I don't feel compelled to further travel that road and believe it is antithetical to the human spiritual experience. Not to mention, really unnecessary - except to "fit in" in one way or another. (don't get me wrong, I like Photoshop, but I could do without)
4. Convid Narrative "A" gives way to Convid Narrative "B"... You nail it. Controlled. Also, both are of digital origin, right? "A" by way of metagenomics and "B" creating a group of followers brought together via Internet TV! 2020 was the big plunge into digital. I have had the hardest time communicating with those that are in the box "B" people.
5. I can't join Mark Stahlman on the glimmer of hope with figuring out AI. Call me a Luddite. Give me a sledgehammer. How can we hear the ever present whisper of spirit with the noise of trillions of artificial thoughts being blasted throughout our surroundings - even from our friends' mouths? How are we to connect to our common Source when it is being superimposed by Googleplex? What is truth, AI?
6. I could change my tune with new experiences, but these are my thoughts at present. Shut down these machines, or they will shut us down (again). Look away and make a game plan.
The KSM 32 Shure is a fantastic microphone but my voice really works perfectly on the RE 20. And notably not the RE 27. The shure sounded way too thin and ready. This is almost like a hamburger. It has a fat sound. And it’s also a very easy Mike to work with particularly in my style which is like close to the Mike style speaking while I’m doing radio. Not so much for video.
I love to see (and hear) you on that RE20 again, Eric. It really brings forth the warmth in your voice.
eric,
mate, absolutely fab conversation with a "wired" human being. I'm smiling wide..!!!
i've just finished reading Krisnamurti and am now reading Sun Tzu - The Art of War translation.
Both are leaving me jiggling with excitment as to the completeness of "our world" as that which, resides between our ears. That is, our perception of what we are, in relation to where we are as a mental creature and the consequences of the actions that follow. Our heads are where it's at.
We are truely in amazing times. To quote David Adelman (The People's Lawer here in the UK) CV19 is a gift that keeps on giving....!!!! Long may this continue. The agenda is failing because the entire thing is based on lies without substance. It's only because people believe that any of this stuff sticks to the wall. Inter-generational death cults are dead in themselves.
Flow like water man. And do not ever put your efforts over the past 3 years down. They are Gold. OK.
O, I think i've got a new business plan that may take off...as quoted, yes there are so many cameras here in London, I am proposing to start a Camera Removal Service whereby one takes down any survillence equipment and delivers it all back to the Councils. No destruction, just return. Not sure how they'll take it but, it could be entertaining for a while?
Anyhow, give the Mermaid a kiss...i'm certain she'll love your blue and pink combo headband.
ciao for now
peter. london. uk.
Where’s Newton Minnow when you need him?